Final Surge Podcast

In the Final Surge Podcast, we interview coaches, athletes authors, and endurance industry experts to help you train with a purpose.
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Now displaying: December, 2018
Dec 21, 2018

Our two most downloaded podcast of all time are Joe Vigil and Tinman. Tinman was in the Phoenix area for a couple days, my home area, so I arranged to get together with him. We agreed to sit down to record a podcast. As I was setting up we were talking about my high school team's season and he went to tell me a story about how to quickly heal sprained ankles, 40 minutes later we were still going but had not officially started the podcast yet. I wish we had, one thing you get from talking to Tom is a mixture of absolute passion for running and incredible knowledge of the science and why. So 40 minutes in I hit the record button and we picked up where we were in the discussion. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.

1:30 We need to work on our skills as endurance athletes, how?

  • Learn from sprint coaches
  • Learn from youtube
  • Take sprint mechanic classes and education

2:52 How much time do you work with your athletes on skills?

  • Talk about knee drive and arm position often
  • Assign training like hill repeats
  • Sam Parsons had no power, huge drops when developed power

4:20 Types of hill repeats

  • 30 seconds
  • mile pace effort, the effort is key
  • 1-2x a week but never get away from it year round

5:15 What about if you live in Florida and have no hills

  • Drive to hills
  • Stadium Steps
  • Pull sleds, not too much weight and do technically sound

6:36 Injury prevention

  • This helps minimalize injuries, can never escape
  • Don't overcook with workouts
  • Slow on easy days

7:34 Keep the ball rolling

  • Don't do anything to disrupt training
  • Post run nutrition
  • Dynamic flexibility
  • Hill work
  • Sleep
  • Slow on easy days
  • Sleep not texting in bed
  • Like a snowball, keep it rolling

10:40 What does it mean to you, when we talk about non-elite runners and easy/hard days

  • Modulate days
  • Easy days are easy, 2:00 or 2:300 or more slower than current 5k pace
  • Cant execute when fatigued

12:18 Walking through a week

  • Talking about a cross-country week with a weekly race
  • Monday long run with striders
  • Tuesday easy run
  • Wednesday key workout
  • Thursday easy run
  • Friday pre-meet work with striders
  • Saturday race with a good amount of distance after

13:49 Do you do that year around?

  • One long run and 2 quality days a week, race counts as a quality day

14:31 How hard are you going on the quality days

  • If not sure use CV reps, hill reps and striders
  • Drew did zero of the 8, 10 or 12x400 type workouts in high school, none
  • You don't need to go real hard if you are doing plenty of 600, 800, 1000 CV's
  • Lots of talk on muscle fibers

23:37 If CV is so great, should you be doing them a few times a week during non-race season

  • Dose-response rate, you get almost all you need from one workout a week
  • Run 1600 or 800 have them do CV work after the run

26:40 Brogan Austin was recently on our podcast off his national championship, how is training different with a marathoner?

  • We never ran a marathon pace workout
  • More fast/intermediate CV speed is better
  • Challenge is the pounding of the distance
  • Cruising speed is more important, 10k/10 mile type pace

29:24 We have a lot of marathon and ultra listeners would their CV work volume be different

  • Build up to 20-24 minutes in reps is all you need
  • No isolation training, there is only one energy system
  • Integrate the different speeds into workouts
  • Kids should participate in other sports, but some kids don't like the other sports

36:24 What is the future of Tinman Elite

  • Focused on Olympics, already have 3 qualifiers
  • Will have everything from 800-marathon in the trials
  • Will add females at some point
  • We are team, but we are family

43:50 Stryd Power Meter

  • Measures lots of components of your stride
  • Verticle Oscillation is interesting to watch
  • Helps you identify issues
  • Analyzing races

Previous Episode with Tom
Recent episode with Brogan Austin
Tinman Elite Website
Tinman Elite Twitter
Tinman Elite Instagram
Final Surge Instagram
Final Surge Twitter
Final Surge Facebook
Stryd Power Meter



Dec 14, 2018

The Hopi Indians have a long history and relationship with running. We talk to Professor Matthew Sakiestewa Gilbert the Director of American Indian Studies and Professor of History at the University of Illinois. Matthew was involved in the making of the movie Beyond the Mesas and has a book called Hopi Runners: Crossing the terrain between the Indians and the Americans.


  • Grew up in Flagstaff Arizona
  • Part of the Hopi Indian tribe
  • Did Phd research on Hopi tribe
  • Professor of Indian Studies and History

Hopi high school boys had won 27-state titles in a row and first or second the last 29 years in a row.

Success is telling of their long history of Hopi running

Hopi History

  • How long do we run, to the fence and back
  • Distance runners in western perspective is distance/time Hopi running was going out and coming back
  • Running is the Hopi trustworthy mode of transportation
  • Family members pass down the tradition of running and spiritual aspect

Hopi Runners Book 
Beyond The Mesas Blog
Beyond The Mesas Twitter
Hopi ESPN Segment

Dec 5, 2018

When people were projecting the winners of the Californian International Marathon, which served this year as the USATF Marathon Championship Race, Brogan Austin was not the most mentioned name. Not even close. After his win the message boards lit up, who is this guy, he must be a doper. Turns out he is not a doper but another Tom 'Tinman' Schwartz trained athlete who has been working hard for his moment. And we caught up with him to talk about his win.


  • Dad ran to lose weight and would run with him as young as 5 years old
  • 1-mile route would run and kept running
  • Tried football in 7-8th grade and was too small
  • Made varsity as Freshman in high school and progressed from there
  • Senior year took on another coach and went from 30 to 70 miles a week
  • Ran at Drake but overtrained by working more on side
  • After college ran but cut way back

Tinman connection

  • Saw success the Tinmen Elite crew were having and wanted to start working with Tom
  • Started working with Tom in July 2018
  • Tom proved you don't need to outwork everyone
  • An approach of one day at a time and keeping the ball rolling
  • All workouts are reasonable, feel you could do more at end of a workout
  • Questioned if it was too easy
  • Never once did we do marathon pace specific running


  • Used to do 3 staple workouts, 6-8 mile tempo a 5:00, mile repeats at half marathon pace, 800 repeats at 5k pace. Was only done one of those a week and Saturday long run as a progression
  • Ran 12 miles almost every day
  • Tom had mix workouts, one we did every 2-3 weeks with 10k pace, then hills, then 800-1600 pace
  • Noticed each time did that workout felt progress
  • Ran 62:39 in half marathon and knew he was fit
  • Workouts are easy to recover from

Expectations Going In

  • Had expectations that could win
  • 1/2 marathon gave me confidence
  • Tinman said could win it
  • Consistently doing 90 miles a week with a few longer weeks here and there
  • Longest runs 2:20 minutes
  • No marathon pace work had me worried, but Tom said at 21-miles you will be stronger than everyone
  • Never had a workout could not do because was fatigued


  • When Matt Llano opened the lead had to force himself to not go with him, plan was to go 66
  • Mid-race started doubting training
  • After mile 20 was told Matt was 2 miles ahead so focused on the pack for second
  • With 5k to go tried to make move and was surprised legs responded even though tired
  • Started reeling in Matt, could see lead vehicles
  • Caught him with 500m to go and surged past making strong move

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Born to Run
Current trainers you are wearing? - Nike Air Pegasus
Favorite race? - Drake Relays
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Buritto
Your favorite workout - Long Run

Previous interview with Tinman
Brogan's sponsor Rabbit
Instagram:  @brogan.austin
Facebook: Brogan Austin
Twitter: @brogan_austin