Final Surge Podcast

In the Final Surge Podcast, we interview coaches, athletes authors, and endurance industry experts to help you train with a purpose.
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Apr 2, 2020

Welcome to episode 156 of the Final Surge Podcast. Today we welcome back Tinman Elite runner Drew Hunter. Drew is coming off the first real injury of his running career. We talk about the setback and what that was like for him. We then get into the current Covid-19 situation and how that has impacted him and his team. Drew has some words of encouragement for everyone out there listening and some advice for those high school kids who lost their track season.

:54 How are you feeling after your first real injury?

3:28 Didn't the injury come in the last 200 meters of the race?

5:40 What was the hardest part of dealing with your first injury, was it physical or mental?

7:45 You mentioned you had a race on the calendar, what was that race?

8:47 How are you and your teammates dealing with not knowing when that next race is going to come?

11:56 You mentioned you looked at why you got injured, is there anything that you are doing differently now?

14:47 Have you talked about how you don't know when the next race is so you are going to just stay in a base training mode now?

16:08 Many states are shutting down their spring sports so the track season is done before it really gets going, what would you tell a kid on how to stay motivated?

19:00 What are you doing as a team to keep your sanity during this time of social distancing?

24:46 For your high school fan who may struggle to do the next workout what types of words of encouragement do you have?

26:10 When does the next round of Tinman gear drop?

27:13 What are you guys working on right now and filming?

28:28 So you have your own videographer now?

29:04 Where is the best place for people to follow this content?


Tinman Website
Drew Twitter

Mar 20, 2020

Welcome to episode 155 of the Final Surge Podcast. Today we welcome high school coach Doug Petrick to the podcast. Doug has built one of the most successful teams in western Pennsylvania. Doug does a presentation called the 5 principles that improved our distance program. We talk about those five things and how he is dealing with current Corona Virus disruption. 


5 Principles That Improved Our Distance Program

  1. Minutes over miles
  2. Speed year around (define speed work)
  3. Running by feel
  4. athletic movements
  5. Communicating and learning

Final Surge round, 5 questions in under a minute
Favorite endurance/running book? -  Running with Buffalos
Current trainers you are wearing? -   Brooks Ghost
Favorite race? – 5k
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? – Peanut butter and Jelly
Your favorite workout – Fartlek

Doug on Twitter
Clinic On Twitter

Mar 12, 2020

Welcome to episode 154 of the Final Surge Podcast where today we welcome Olympian Aliphine Tuliamuk. Aliphine was a surprise to some, but she ran the Olympic Marathon Trials in Atlanta fully expecting to make the team. We talked to her about her amazing story of growing up in Kenya, moving to the United States and the stress fracture that set her back last summer. Also make sure you check out the story of her and her NAZ Elite teammates from her coaches perspective at 

1:30 How did you get started in distance running?

2:27 There is that legend that Kenyan kids all run to school 2 miles each way, so that was true for you?

3:01 How old were you when you started this?

3:30 When did you start competing in school against others?

4:09 In 3rd grade when you started competing did you realize you had a natural talent?

5:01 We know if you watch TV we see many Kenyans, so we may think all Kenyans run, how is it really?

6:34 What age did you come to America?

8:40 When you first came over how was the adjustment?

11:04 How did your college career develop?

14:12 In 2011 did you decide you wanted to keep running after college?

15:00 How did you hook up with NAZ Elite?

17:18 Flagstaff is a running haven 

18:22 We see how close you all appear on social media, is it really that close?

19:10 In 2019 you had a stress fracture?

20:32 Did you have concerns about it impacting you making the team?

21:50 Did you get in any training at all those 8 weeks down?

23:14 You had a really short build-up to NYC?

24:08 Did you take the same downtime after NYC?

24:40 Talk about the build-up to the trails and working with the team?

26:15 Was there a plan to work together?

27:45 It was a much different race than the men's race with any one of the 20 in the pack making the team

29:02 Going into the race Kellyn was getting the most attention, was there any one workout that you nailed it and knew you were going to be a contender?  

32:12 Did you like flying under the radar?

32:57 What made you go at the point you did?

34:00 Did you and Molly run together in training?

34:26 Did you talk to your teammates about making the move?

35:08 At what point did you know you were going to make the team?

37:04 How many conversations happen over 2.5 hours?

38:56 What did you think of the course?

39:25 During the first half did you plan to stay behind because of the wind?

40:03 When did you know you were going to win?

40:33 What is that feeling of being an Olympian?

42:00 Now that is over have you sat down and planned out the next few months?

43:43 One thing with the marathon, you know it is ruthless and anything can happen on any day?

44:46 Tell me about those beanies

Aliphine Beanies
Aliphine Training 
NAZ Elite Training
Aliphine Twitter
Aliphine Instagram




Mar 6, 2020

Welcome to episode 153 of the Final Surge Podcast. Last week we had on a couple of experts to talk about the US Olympics Marathon Trial. On the men's side, despite a strong Chicago Marathon, Jake Riley did not get much attention. Many casual marathon observers did not even know the name. Jake had to take three years off racing after the 2016 trials because of injury. This unsponsored athlete made a comeback that had the running world talking and took home a second-place and a place on the Olympic team. Today, meet Jake Riley.

1:44 When did you start running?

6:45 Talk about your very successful career at Stanford

7:40 Having someone in front of you helps push you right?

9:06 Did you know when you were at Standford that running was something you wanted to do post-college?

10:37 You ran for Hanson out of college?

11:04 You ended up getting a long injury, when did that happen?

13:23 Was there any doubt during those three years that your running career may be done?

15:53 When did you move to Boulder and start working with Lee Troope?

16:55 Tell us about that first race back after three full years off

18:38 At that time in 2019 did you feel at that time after three years you could even make it back to the trials?

20:03 You ran a 2:10 at Chicago, was that your first marathon back?

21:23 How did you get a top ten in Chicago and come out unsponsored?

24:58 There were a lot of previews written, but not much of a mention of your name, how did you feel going in?

26:35 There was an early breakaway, did you go in to the race with a plan to be ready for the breakaway?

29:57 When Rupp goes out at 15 miles what was the mood of the group when that happened?

32:17 What did you think of the course?

33:30 At mile 19/20 you were still a minute back, was there concern you let them get away to far?

36:14 When you are coming up on then, did you think Korir was maybe a lock for the team and you were racing Abdi for the third spot?

38:10 Why did you grab the flag with 1/4 of a mile to go with two chasing you?

39:51 How does it feel to be an Olympian?

41:36 How much time are you giving yourself off?

43:10 Tokyo is a flatter course, how are you going to change your training?

Jake on Twitter
Jake on Instagram


Feb 27, 2020

Welcome to episode 152 of the Final Surge Podcast. This episode is all about the upcoming USA Men and Women's Olympic Marathon Trials. In the first half of this episode, I have Mario Fraioli joining me to talk about the men's race. Then in the second half, Erin Strout of Women's Running joins me to talk about the women's race. We talk about some of the favorites, what race strategies to expect and more. 

Mario Fraioli Joins us to talk about the men's race, the course and what to expect

Mario Coaching Website 
Morning Shakeout
Mario on Twitter
Mario on Instagram

Erin Strout joins us to talk about the women's race and go over the favorites
Erin on Twitter
Erin on Instagram
Women's Running

Bio of all the athletes participating

Feb 14, 2020

Welcome to episode 151 of the Final Surge Podcast. We welcome in Hollie Sick who runs the popular blog Fueled By Lolz. Hollie is a collegiate swimmer turned runner and has worked in a running store for the last six years. We talk about several topics including the new World Athletic ruling on race shoes. Don't forget Final Surge is a great coaching platform and always free for athletes.

1:27 How you got involved in athletics and how that lead to running?

5:14 What was running at a D3 college like?

8:29 You went from doing 4 hours a day swimming to 90 minutes of running practice, what were some of the differences between the swim and run training?

9:36 How did that college running career go?

11:10 Did you jump in doing what others were doing or did your coach bring you along slowly?

12:14 Didn't you used to run in Newton's?

13:04 What was the transition like from college to post-collegiate running?

14:48 With the swimming and running background, what about triathlon?

16:00 How long have you been working at a shoe store?

16:47 What have you noticed in changes in the running shoe world in the last six years?

18:33 Didn't Hoka come out in the height of the minimalist shoes

19:12 We have seen what Nike is doing since 2016, talk about the carbon fiber shoe

20:32 Do they not hold up as long?

21:40 So they should be used for races only for the most part?

22:22 What other carbon fiber shoes are there out there?

25:32 Shoes need to now be out on the market for 4 months, do you think Brooks and Saucony will be out in time for end of April?

27:20 How do you see the shoe market changing going forward?

28:29 When did you start the blog Fueled by LOLz

29:26 Everyone had a running blog a decade ago, you are one of few still going? How many posts do you have?

Final Surge round, 5 questions in under a minute
Favorite endurance/running book? -  Running: A Love Story
Current trainers you are wearing? -  Hoka and New Balance
Favorite race? – Shamrock 1/2 Marathon
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? – Pancakes
Your favorite workout – 400m repeats


Blog Fueled By Lolz
Hollie on Twitter
Hollie on Instagram



Jan 30, 2020

Episode 150: Welcome to episode 150 of the Final Surge Podcast where coach and podcast host Jonathan Marcus joins us to talk about speed. In episode 145 we had Tony Holler on to talk about Feed The Cats and developing speed. Today Jonathan Marcus joins us to discuss how exactly to implement that for endurance athletes. 


:57 What is new with Jonathan Marcus in the last two years?

3:58 Did you just take on too much?

7:00 You put out a tweet last August that caused a lot of uproar..

It is impossible to teach an athlete to ‘run fast when tired.’

The very nature of being in a state of fatigue negates the ability to run fast — the skill of speed is only learned when fresh.

Therefore, doing a tempo run followed by ‘fast’ 200s is, in fact, a useless exercise. 

  9:00 If you take a body and put it through stress then allow it proper recovery time doesn't it make the body stronger?

12:04 I guess it depends on some factors like the workload, doesn't it depend on the extent of the tempo run?

17:03 We are talking about speed and getting it in fresh, but if I am working on maximum speed, we are probably not running flying 40's and 60's. But the 200's are not for pure top-end speed.

22:00 Are there any published documents on this you would recommend reading?

26:09 Our audience is mostly high school coaches and age group runners, not mostly elite type runners listening. You had on Tony Holler and we had Tony on the same week as you. Everyone likes the idea of speed, but how do we implement that for endurance athletes

36:43 On that week Monday are you talking about 3 flying 40's or are you talking about 5x300 type speed work?

44:51 This is where endurance is different, you are doing more work when Tony is done after those 30's

48:28 Would you come back on Friday and get in some 3x30's to get in a little more speed work?

53:43 You are talking to a distance coach and we are coming into track season and you have a freshman coming in who may want to break 5:20 and a senior trying to break a sub-4:10, when you are working with the freshman are you working with more speed as a percentage or endurance?

1:04:05 The X-Factor Drills are a great progression, when do you work them into a workout day?

Jonathan on Twitter
High Performance West

Jan 17, 2020

Welcome to episode 149 of the Final Surge Podcast. In this episode, we welcome Marc Bloom to the show to talk about his new book Amazing Racers. Anyone who follows high school running knows that Fayetville Manlius is an amazing story. Their girl's team won the Nike National XC Championship 11 of the first 12 years they were there, coming in second the one year they didn't win. And the boys team, while only winning one national championship, has been one of the 22 team to qualify for the national championship 13 of the 15 years the race has been around. We talk to Mark about how a small school in upstate New York has been able to be so dominant for so long. If you are a coach or just a running fan you are going to enjoy this episode. 


1:34 How did you become so interested in high school cross country?

3:40 You have been around the high school distance scene for decades, how has it changed?

5:54 What about the coaching and training side, how has that changed?

7:28 What are some of the common factors for the teams that are successful year after year?

10:03 Can you give us a quick overview of Nike and the role FM has played in that?

13:04 What gives FM the success they are having?

19:09 What are some of the go-to books that have influenced Bill Aris?

25:04 What I took from the belief system is the team leaders became the driving force to push the team

28:50 The hallmark of their program is the tight compression of the team. But often early in the season it is that is not there and it gets better by the end of the season, so what is happening to 3-5 to get such a tight compression?

33:06 You say it is not about the X's and O's, but in the book, they go hard and go hard often

37:58 The race was secondary, a by-product. Training was where culture changed. The race was like a degree after years of study. That’s why Mackenzie Carter would get upset when a teammate didn’t understand the “gravity” of a workout. “How they’d trained,” said John Aris, “exceeded any difficulty they would find in the race.”  This effort seemed to be done every time they laced up the shoes together.

43:29 After 2013 they come back and boys and girls win in 2014

47:23 They talk a lot about 1-7, but what about 8-20 are they going through the same things?

50:19 There is criticism that the kids don't have success at the next level, how much of that is just the college experience of team is different?

55:36 There is a perception that Bill Aris is stand-offish and is not involved in the community, so how hard was it get this book done?

1:00:01 If there is high school coach trying to implement this, I think it is going to be impossible unless it is who you are, this is who Bill Aris is

1:04:15 How much longer do you think Bill will be doing this?

Amazing Racers


Jan 10, 2020

Episode 148: We welcome back 2:16 marathoner turned coach Steve Palladino. Steve coaches using the Stryd Power Meter. We talk to Steve about what power is when it comes to running, how it differs from other training guides and what has changed in the power world in the last two years. 

1:37 What is running with power?

2:44 There have been some critics of power, what is it in power we measure that makes it so effective?

7:04 Is power related to perceived effort?

9:08 There are a lot of people who run with heart rate and some do off time charts based on race pace, how does power differ in training compared to those two models?

13:42 You have been using power for 4 years now, cyclist all use power meters, will this catch on like it did in cycling?

17:28 Stryd is on their 3rd generation, Polar and Garmin are putting more into power, how has power changed in the last two years since we talked to you?

19:58 If someone got a new Stryd Power Meter, what is the first thing they need to do?

23:50 We talk about some of the changes that Stryd has made

24:37 Nicole Lane qualified for the marathon trials in Chicago, can you talk about using power with her in training?

30:10 How does a workout look like for her using power?

35:03 How have you used power with helping guide high school runners?

38:10 What advice do you have for a coach on how they could add this to their program with a high school team?

40:41 Have you noticed any data with the Nike 4% shoes and impact on power?

46:04 What is in your plans you sell?

Palladino Power Facebook Group
Palladino Coaching Page with plans
Episode 77 with Palladio
Stryd Power Meter

Dec 19, 2019

Episode 146: Professional triathlete Morgan Pearson was one of the founding members of the Tinman Elite club and joins us to talk about the founding of the group. We also discuss his transition to becoming a professional triathlete and his win at this past week's Club Cross Championship.

1:02 Morgan's background and how it lead to a later change to triathlon

2:50 What were your times before you made the jump?

3:49 When you made the big jump is that when you realized you may want to run at college?

5:14 Did you compete in swimming in high school too?

5:50 When did you make the college commitment?

6:08 Why did you make that transfer to Colorado?

6:57 Did you realize when you made the transition to Colorado did you realize you wanted to pursue this after school?

8:26 You were one of the founding members of Tinman Elite right?

8:51 What made you decide to join Tom?

12:00 When you started Tinman with Drew early on, did you ever even dream it could become what it has become?

13:58 You have run under Wetmore and Tom, what are some of the biggest differences?

17:02 When did you decide to make the jump to triathlon?

19:39 Your first triathlon you won, how did the race go?

23:09 How much training on the bike did you do before that?

24:17 USA Triathlon must have been interested in you after that win?

25:04 Was it after that win that you decided you were going to focus on it?

25:45 What has been the toughest transition from runner to triathlete?

27:34 Are you racing more as triathlete than you were as a runner?

28:29 When is your Olympic qualifying race?

29:58 Three Club Cross Championships in a row and you won the individual title

32:47 How did the Club Cross race play out?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Running with the Buffaloes
Current trainers you are wearing? - 361
Favorite race? - Club Cross
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Kale smoothie
Your favorite workout - Fartlek


Morgan on Instagram
Morgan on Twitter


Dec 12, 2019

Welcome to episode 145 of the Final Surge Podcast. Today we welcome hall of fame sprint coach Tony Holler. Tony is an extremely popular coach known for his program Feed The Cats. He has been coaching for close to 40 years and we talk to Tony about how what he does with sprinters can translate to the endurance world.

1:00 How did Tony get started in track

4:08 What was your background in track before you became the head coach in 1990?

5:28 Where did that drive to change the program and learn come from?

7:58 Do you find that writing so much makes you examine closer the way you think and why you think them?

9:28 What can an endurance athlete or coach learn from your system Feed The Cats?

12:58 You say the faster your top-end speed, the faster your sub-max speed is, how does that work?

15:45 John O'Malley is also the only coach two have two different individuals win Footlocker

16:38 If a miler works on top-end speed, how is that helping with his mile time, is it biomechanical, neural, combination or what is impacting his mile time when we work on top-end?

20:32 You say speed is neurological, not muscular, does that mean a kid shouldn't be in the weight room, or they can, they just are not going to get the benefit they think they are going too?

24:23 Your school comes to you and says you are now the cross country coach, how do you implement springing, X-factor and lactate workouts?

30:32 Would you be doing those daily or part of the workout days or when?

Track Football Consortium
Feed The Cats Video series
Tony on Twitter



Nov 24, 2019

Welcome to episode 144 of the Final Surge podcast. We welcome back the founder of the Boulder Running Clinics Jay Johnson to talk about his clinics and the state of high school distance running. What are the most successful programs doing and how are people incorporating things like speed more into their programs. I have been to several coaching clinics and I can say without a doubt that Jay's Boulder Clinic is the most informative and useful one I have ever been too. Enjoy this episode and if you attend the clinic in January come to say hi to me. 


1:40 Intro to Boulder Running Clinics

4:03 You have been around the high school running scene for around 20 years now. It has changed a lot. What has been the biggest change you have seen?

8:02 You can have coaches sharing ideas and talking to each other but if they are doing different things how do you know what to implement. 

17:33 One probably is you need to look at the whole system not just workouts because the system works as a whole. 

25:55 Clinic is Jan 17, 18. Who else do you have presenting?

29:13 There was a lot of talk last year about Feed The Cats, can you talk about what that session was about?

Boulder Running Clinics Website
Jay on Twitter

Nov 14, 2019

Episode 143: Dathan Ritzenhein joins us to talk about the recent Chicago and NYC Marathons. Along with his own running, he is also coaching and his athletes include Olympic hopeful Parker Stinson. We talk Olympic marathon trials and shoe tech. 

1:00 What happened so you needed to pull out of the Chicago Marathon?

4:28 We have 11 men under the A Standard now so it is harder than ever to make the team

5:01 Will the trials be your next race?

6:23 You are now coaching Parker Stinson who has the A Standard

7:47 Parker's first marathon he went out hard and blew up in historic fashion, this race was a perfect split

9:57 When did you and Parker start working together?

11:36 Was racing strategy the first thing you guys talked about?

13:50 There were 4 Americans all running within 20 seconds of each other

15:12 We are seeing crazy times being put up, how much do you attribute that to the shoes?

17:40 Is there any concern with you that the technology is getting too advanced?

19:44 Even if you could limit them in races, but that doesn't change the fact that they get the benefit in training

21:33 What did you think of the 1:59 marathon?

22:49 What did you think about the women's new marathon record?

23:40 Have you been to the Atlanta course to scope it out?

25:03 Is it a lot of hills, or the hills it has are big?

26:20 With the hilly course, who has an advantage?

28:01 Comparing marathon times on paper, but there are currently 4 guys are under 2:10, could this course be an equalizer? 

30:02 How are you using Final Surge

Dathan on Instagram
Dathan on Twitter
Dathan Coaching Services

Nov 7, 2019

Episode 142: This week we welcome Mario Fraioli to the podcast we talk about the recent Chicago and NYC marathons, the sub 1:59 marathon and what this all tells us about the upcoming Olympic Trials. We also discuss the shoes. How much do they help and what should be the limits. Please share the podcast with your friends.

1:08 Were there any big surprises or take-a-ways you had from the NYC marathon results?

2:59 Desi went out early, did that surprise you?

5:50 How did your NYC Marathon go?

6:15 Chicago on the men's side we had 10 under 2:12

7:54 Jared Ward had a great NYC race too

8:32 On the women's side of Chicago do you think that 2:14 was real?

10:47 We have so many distance runners getting popped for drugs, you almost need to ask yourself why they are still doing it

12:39 What did you think of the 1:59 marathon?

17:24 Looking at the US Trials we have twice as many men and women qualified, why? Is it because of the shoes?

19:55 The new shoes, how much do they make a difference?

23:20 Is there an advantage to Nike athletes?

25:53 Should there be some sort of technology limits we allow?

29:23 The US Marathon Trials course is hilly, who is this going to help?

33:00 On the women's side is there anyone a lock for the team?

35:50 So what are you up to with the Morning Shakeout Newsletter and Podcast?


Morning Shakeout
Mario on Instagram
Mario on Twitter
Mario's Website

Oct 31, 2019

Welcome to episode 141 of the Final Surge Podcast where today we welcome marathon and ultra runner Brad Lindeberg. We talk to Brad about his quest for 50 marathon or longer races in 50 states and how having a personal coach has helped him achieve new goals. 


1:17 How you got started in running?

3:01 How was your high school cross country career?

5:08 Did you keep running after high school?

6:30 Did that 2010 marathon go much better than  2001?

7:20 At what point did you decide you wanted to pursue that goal of running 50 marathons in 50 states?

9:51 At what point did you decide to hire Neely as a coach?

13:30 You are running NYC this weekend, does that mean you got that sub 2:55 marathon?

15:23 How has that personal coaching helped you?

17:12 What is a big take away you have learned from Neely as a coach?

20:11 Is a lot of the communication going on in Final Surge?

22:40 How has your training block for NYC been going?

24:35 Has there been anything different in this training block?

27:02 Has she given you any advice specific to the course?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? -Inside The Marathon
Current trainers you are wearing? - Altra
Favorite race? - Boston and Shiprock Marathon
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Salmon Burger with bacon and pickle 
Your favorite workout - Progression runs

Brad on Twitter
Neely Spence Gracey Coaching
Brad on Instagram
Brad on Strava


Oct 17, 2019

Welcome to episode 140 of the Final Surge Podcast. Corcoran High in California has a very successful running program. Coach Isaias Ramirez is the unlikely leader of the program. With no running background, Coach Ramirez leaned on other coaches to help develop his winning philosophy. In the last year, he has implemented something he learned at a clinic called RPR, Reflexive Performance Reset. He credits RPR for taking a successful program and making it even better and reducing injuries to almost nothing. We discuss what RPR is and how he uses it. 


1:20 How did you get involved in running?

3:15 How long you been coaching now?

3:34 You were a lineman in football then a football coach and then became a cross country coach. Did your background in football help or how did you learn how to have so much success?

5:47 What was the philosophy you adopted for your program?

8:10 You start learning to develop your plan, what was your progression like?

9:54 What does a typical week look like for you?

11:18 CV, hill sprinting sounds like you have adopted some Tinman?

12:00 Do you have enough data to look at it and make some conclusions about how it is working?

13:01 How often are you doing those CV workouts?

14:43 You don't have a big team, injuries can hurt your team greatly so what are you doing with RPR and can you explain what it is?

20:14 Did you have shin splint issues before RPR?

20:58 Is it a certain stretching routine?

21:33 Is it a specific routine that is always the same?

23:30 How long was it before you started seeing results?

25:10 What about other common running injuries?

28:55 How are you implementing this?

30:00 Walk us through what your practice looks like

Corcoran on Twitter

Oct 10, 2019

This is a best of episode. Tom Schwartz joined us to talk about skills, hills and keeping the ball rolling. 

Oct 4, 2019

Episode 139: Today we welcome back triathlon coach Mark Sortino to the podcast. Mark joined us on Episode 39 and now he joins us again 100 episodes later. Mark runs Team MPI and we talk to him about his coaching organization, some coaching continuing education sessions that he has coming up and what to expect at Kona 2019.

1:10 Tell is who you are and what you do in 2 minutes. For a more full bio listen to episode 39.

3:07 How many coaches are Team MPI up to?

3:40 With your 15 coaches are they full time or part-time and this is something they do on the side?

5:04 How many coaches are each coach working with and how do you match the athlete to the best coach?

6:58 How individualized is each plan if you have a coach working with 20 athletes.

8:22 What is the Team MPI system look like?

10:25 How do you work on a swim stroke or run gate for someone you are working with online?

13:52 Do you have people video themselves doing strides or such?

15:09 What type of education process do your Team MPI coaches go through?

17:04 A key is communications, how do you communicate with your athletes?

19:56 Do you find yourself using the Final Surge App more and more?

21:48 Talk about the upcoming coaches retreat you have at Ironman Arizona

25:05 Kona is coming up, can anyone beat Daniela Ryf on the women's side?

28:25 Patrick Lange, can someone beat him at Kona? Does any prepare better for one race than he does?

30:50  Jan Frodeno and Sebastian Kienle will likely be his biggest competition. All three are from Germany, what has happened to the American's?

32:23 Which of the men do you think is going to win?


Upcoming Coaches Retreat at IMAZ
Team MPI Training Plans
Team MPI Website
Team MPI on Instagram
Team MPI on Facebook



Sep 19, 2019

Episode 138: Jason Fitzgerald of Strength Running. Jason has been blogging and creating online courses for about a decade. Jason has a new program out called Running Smarter, Runner Stronger. This program is 17 chapters of high-quality video to make you a better runner. Check out Jason's program and if want to train with a purpose head over to for your free account, now onto the show. 

1:33 How Strength Running Started

4:45 You have been doing this for a decade now, but when I saw your new trailer I knew this was next level stuff

6:25 Who is this new course designed for?

9:00 We expect strength training and injury prevention content from you, but this is so much more, does this take place of a coach?

10:50 One of the things you talk about is overstriding, in this video series what is the structure of the advice they would get?

15:25 One thing you hear often is you don't want to change form too quickly in their running for. What are some of the things you work on to do this?

18:50 Overstriding vs long stride

23:12 A new runner the cardiovascular system grows and develops faster than the body, how does your program deal with mileage buildup?

26:41 One of the chapters is on speedwork, can you give an example of what may be found in that chapter?

29:54 Where can people find out more online and get a sample lesson?


Running Smarter Program
Jason on Twitter
Run Smarter Course

Sep 12, 2019

Episode 137: Brad Curtis is the cross country coach of a small school in Arizona. Their boy's team this year is a top ten school in the state, not bad for a school of only 200 kids with only 12 boys on the team. We talk to Brad about the struggles of being a coach from such a small school and how he has built a strong culture.


1:10 When did you start in running?

2:08 His background in boxing and how far the boxing career went

4:02 How did that lead to being a cross country and track coach?

4:59 How old is the school and how big is it?

4:58 You are competing in a state where some schools have 3-4,000 kids

6:23 Small school makes it tough in what way?

7:52 How many kids are on the high school team?

8:15 When you took over the program from Josh how big was the team at the time?

9:00 When your team is not big and not competitive how do you entice kids to come out and get involved?

10:50 How big is your middle school program?

11:38 Are you losing them because you are a small school without the resources or facilities?

13:29 You have 25 kids and 12 boys, and you are looking at a top 10 school in the state this year. How hard is it to keep kids so you can build this?

16:00 When you have 3500 kids and you have 50 boys on the team it is much easier to develop and find those top driven kids, when you only have 12 you have to get the most out of each one of the kids, what is the secret to keeping them all driven and focused?

18:33 Has the success of Jordan Black helped by getting people working harder or does it discourage people because they cannot keep up with him?

22:21 How did you change the culture in the program?

24:33 How has training changed, what has been your philosophy?

26:40 What does a normal day look like at your practice?

27:40 What does the week look like?

29:38 So how many miles is that a week?

30:35 Small schools can fluctuate, what advice do you have to make the program more consistent?

33:00 Did it help with recruiting?

34:45 If you have only 12 boys, and some are really fast and some are really slow and then in between, that doesnt leave large packs, how do you monitor how much people are running and at what effort?

37:23 Do you find it beneficial for those who do log their miles?

38:35 Do you have a workout you repeat to kind of gauge your level of fitness and progression?

40:03 Are your 1k's at CV pace?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Running with the Buffalo's
Current trainers you are wearing? - Brooks Ghost
Favorite race? - 5k
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Chocolate Milk
Your favorite workout - 1k repeats

Brad Curtis on Twitter
North Phoenix Prep on Instagram





Sep 6, 2019

Episode 136: Reed Fischer of the Tinman Elite Group has had quite a year. He has set a PR in everything from the 5k to the half marathon and just came in 5th in the 20k National Championship. This is quite an accomplishment for someone who didn't break 23 minutes in a 5k his freshman season or 5 minutes in a mile until he was a sophomore in high school. We talk to Reed about his growth and about the success of his team. 



1:15 How did you get started in running?

4:20 When you were a freshman/sophomore what type of times were you running?

6:50 Where was it that you made your biggest change that set you on this path?

9:53 You had a steady progression after that, when was it you realized that college running may be a possibility?

 12:14 Did you think you had a shot at making the team at Drake?

14:21 Who started working with Tom first you or Brogan?

15:45 How did you end up teaming up with Tinmen?

18:31 Most of you are not the NCAA Champions but you have tremendous success as a team and competing for national championships so what is it that is making you guys so successful?

23:40 Tom has been fairly open about his training, what has been the biggest change in your training since you joined him?

27:33 Breaking down the 7/7/7 a little more and many PR's this year, what is the plan with the marathon?

29:00 Does your success this year make you want to give the 800 a go and see what you could do?

30:37 The first marathon is always an experience, so going into your first one what are your expectations and goals?

35:00 Next year is an Olympic year, what will your focus be?

36:55 You are a very young team how has the reception been from other teams?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Running with the Buffalos 
Current trainers you are wearing? - Asics GT-2000
Favorite race? - Drake Relays 
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Cheeseburger
Your favorite workout - Tempo and a long run


Instagram: @reedfisch
Twitter: @reedfisch

Aug 29, 2019

Episode 135: We welcome Dr Jason Karp who has been a competitive runner since sixth grade. Dr. Karp is also a coach and the bestselling author of 8 books and over 400 articles. We talk about several issues including cardio, mental health benefits fo running and the importance of coaches and athletes knowing about the Female Athlete Triad.

1:10 Background on how he got started getting interested in running

2:29 Did you become interested because you had success?

3:40 In high school did you continue sprinting or did you move up in distance?

5:08 In high school did you know you wanted to take this career path?

6:50 Where did you decide to go to school?

11:33 Was your intention to keep coaching after this process?

11:58 What level of coaching are you doing right now?

12:44 You are a big supporter of running while not all exercise trainers are a believer in cardio, you even wrote a book called Run Your Fat Off what do you find so beneficial about the sport?

14:05 So how do you Run Your Fat Off?

16:11 How often do you hear "I can't run" and how do you overcome that?

17:58 You have a book called Developmental Concept for Cross Country, what is that about?

19:38 One of the things that many young women need to be aware of, and I would argue that coaches really need to be aware of is the Female Athlete Triad, what do coaches and athletes need to understand?

23:50 I went to a clinic with Jay Johnson a few years back, and I don't remember the exact number, but they looked at incoming female athletes in college and it was some off the wall number like 70% were not eating enough calories for their athletic needs, can you talk about how important calorie intake is?

26:53 As a male high school coach you mentioned these conversations can be uncomfortable for high school girls, this is where we need to loop the parents in

28:00 For more information is the Running for Women the best place you have for information on this?

28:25 What is the REVO₂LUTION RUNNING™ certification program for coaches and trainers?

31:07 You mentioned some of the benefits of running mentally, can you talk about some of the mental benefits of running?

33:17 You have 8 books, is there another one in the works?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Joe Sheehan
Current trainers you are wearing? - Hoka
Favorite race? - Mile
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Chocolate Milk
Your favorite workout - 400m reps


Jason's Website
Dr Jason Karp on Facebook
Instagram  @drjasonkarp


Aug 15, 2019

Episode 134: Matt Baxter grew up running in New Zeland. He comes over to the states to run for Coach Smith and the NAU Lumberjacks and helped lead the team to 3 straight Cross Country titles. We talked about the mental game of not always having your best race and his transition to running as a professional for NAZ Elite.

1:15 How did you get started running in New Zeland?

1:51 what is high school running like in New Zeland high schools?

3:02 When did you make the transition to coming to the United States to run for NAU?

3:22 What was it like coming to Flagstaff and running at elevation?

4:40 Why did you decide to come to the States?

5:53 3 years and 3 national titles, was there one that was more special?

7:15 In 2017 you were second overall at Cross, but then at Indoors you didn't even qualify for nationals in the 5k, what happened?

10:05 When you are a high school runner you can have a bad race and still win a race, but when you are running at a high level it is different, what is it like mentally to get used to that?

12:06 In 2018 you were the favorites, but there was a lot of talk about BYU. Coach Smith said that on that day even though you didn't have a great race it was great because of how tough you were, can you talk about how that race went?

15:15 What is it like running under coach Smith?

17:04 With you and Tyler gone from NAU cross country now, what do you think this year holds for them?

18:33 Why did you choose to run with NAZ Elite and Ben Rosario?

20:27 You ended up heading back for New Zeland after you signed, was the plan always to be gone for 6 months?

23:17 What is your favorite place to run in Flagstaff?

24:23 What is the biggest difference between training under Ben and Coach Smith?

26:13 You have a new young crew at NAZ, what has it been like?

27:37 What is it like having a former competitor like Rory as a teammate now?

29:34 What events will you focus on the next few years?

31:12 You could have 4 countries all represented in Tokyo, have you talked about that as a team?

32:55 The NAZ group does a lot online reaching out to runners and making the sport look fun, you are drawing in young runners as fans, what can we do to make the sport even more attractive?

36:20 Thousands are racing on weekends, what do we do to reach the hobby joggers and get them in the stands?

40:08 What is the next race for you?

40:52 You running with Tyler in Flagstaff again?

43:00 Talking about Tyler running as a professional blows my mind with how far he has come since high school. 


Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Once a Runner
Current trainers you are wearing? - Clifton
Favorite race? - NCAA Cross
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Oatmeal
Your favorite workout - Mile repeats or long tempo


NAZ Elite




Aug 8, 2019

In episode 133 we have a great show for you. Did you watch the USATF's? Did you see the men's 5k? I thought it was absolutely one of the most entertaining 5k races I have ever seen. Over the course of that race I went from thinking what is Woody Kincaid doing up there, to thinking Woody Kincaid is done to saying wow, what a gutsy race by Kincaid. I became a fan. We talked to Woody about the race, what he was thinking and how he feels about being top 3 but not getting a spot on the World's team. This was a great episode and I hope you enjoy it and share it.

1:30 How did you get started in running?

2:08 What was it about running that drew you in?

2:44 Did you have early success?

3:10 At what point did you realize you wanted to do it in college?

4:02 Did a lot of colleges have interest?

5:00 Did the option come from Colorado to run there?

5:35 When did you decide you wanted to run professionally?

6:35 What did you learn from going to Kenya?

8:00 Did Rob Conner introduce you to Jerry or how did that relationship start?

9:24 Talk about your 2-3 years of running as a professional and what it has been like?

12:00 You went into indoors, how did that season go?

12:48 Do you think that race at indoors helped get you focused?

13:41 How was your training leading up to outdoors?

14:47 Were you confident before USATF's?

15:32 The 5k at USATF's was one of my favorite races, what was the gameplan you had before the race?

17:45 In the first 600m you already gapped the field, did you know it was going out that fast?

18:58 At the mile marker when he starts talking to you what is going through your mind?

20:07 Did he put a crazy hard surge when you decided you were not going to take the lead?

21:18 When you clipped him was that when he pulled off to the side and almost stopped?

21:45 When you got to the lead what was your gameplan?

23:40 Pack catches you, I turned to my son and son and Woody is done, did you have concerns when they caught you?

25:13 With 500 meters to go you fall back to 5th did you think you were ok because you can kick well?

26:00 with 250 to go you fought your way back into it and I became a Woody fan

26:45 When you are racing you are thinking about winning, you probably are not thinking about the standard the whole time right?

27:30 You just miss the standard, what do you think about the current system of not allowing time to chase a standard?

29:03 So what is next for you?

29:42 Let's talk about the status of the sport, what do we need to do to fill the stands?

30:33 Have betting at the track?

30:50 What if the race had fone different, what if you finished not in the front?

32:00 I imagine this is going to help the contract negotiations?

33:03 You mentioned the Price of the Mile podcast, what happened with it?


Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Running for my Life
Current trainers you are wearing? - Pegasus 35
Favorite race? - 5k
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Beet Juice
Your favorite workout - Tempo with speed work

Woody on Instagram 
5k race on NBC Sports

Aug 1, 2019

In Episode 132 of the Final Surge Podcast, we welcome Olympics Trials qualifier and 50 mile US Trail Champ Dani to the podcast. Dani currently also coaches for Luke Humphry and the Hanson running team. She recently had a fundraising run for domestic violence and sexual assault advocacy which we talk about.

1:15 How Dani got started in running and as a multi-sport athlete

2:05 Were you playing club softball?

2:20 What was it about track that drew you in?

4:00 Do you remember what type of times you ran for the mile in middle school and high school?

4:55 You had success as a middle school miler, did you play both softball and run in high school?

5:50 Once in high school did you always want to run in college?

7:32 What was your running career like as a professional runner?

8:55 2017 US 50-mile Trail Champ, what was that like doubling the marathon distance?

11:20 How did you get started coaching?

13:20 What is the similarity in coaching at all levels from MS-Adults?

14:40 Let's talk about middle school coaching, you want them to fall in love with running so you need to make it fun, but they are not going to have fun if they are not racing well, so how do you balance that?

18:05 You recently did 340 miles to raise money for sexual assault and domestic violence awareness, tell us about that experience

21:00 Did you have a lot of people joining you on the different legs of the run?

22:12 What was it that made you decide you wanted to do a run for this?

23:40 How do you train to run a marathon every day for 8 days in a row?

26:00 What was the hardest part of it?

30:10 Do you have something set up so if people still want to donate they can?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Basic Marathon Plan
Current trainers you are wearing? - Hoka OneOne Clifton
Favorite race? - Great Lakes Relay
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Craft Beer and Sweet Potatoe Fries and Veggie Burger
Your favorite workout - 3x6miles

Dani Coaching
Dani on Instagram
Dani on Twitter
Final Surge on Instagram
Final Surge on Twitter

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