Final Surge Podcast

In the Final Surge Podcast, we interview coaches, athletes authors, and endurance industry experts to help you train with a purpose.
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Jul 26, 2019

Dr. Jeff Messer is one of the most successful high school coaches of the 21st Century. He has won more state cross country titles than not including winning the 2016 National Coach of the Year. In 12 years he was involved in coaching 11 State Championship teams. Jeff is also the head of the exercise science department at Mesa Community College. We have a great discussion on building a team, what your goals should really be and how important things like sleep and nutrition are to a successful high-level athlete. 

:45 Background as a runner

 1:52 You stay on top of all the latest science, what came first the love for that or the love for coaching?

2:52 Coaches may be looking at a research paper how do we know if the research paper is actually a good paper and good research?

4:15 What is your success in cross country as a coach?

5:15 For a high school coach who doesn't your science background, how can they become better educated?

6:18 Some coaches know the science and can explain everything. Some don't know the science but can tell you what works for example. How important is it to know the science or not?

7:30 If you were giving advice to a newer coach. What type of general advice do you have in what is important in building a program?

8:37 You talk a lot about how the goals are not the time, but the process is the goal. What does that mean?

9:57 What areas are part of the process?

11:41 Often times the athletes we are working with are high achievers, including in the class. How do you stress the importance of sleep to these student-athletes?

14:10 How much sleep does a 16-year old who runs 50 miles a week need?

15:15 How often do you run into students who are not getting enough sleep?

17:10 If you have an athlete that will run in college and another runner who has no desire to run in college, do you coach them differently? 

19:07 The question I get most often from parents is about nutrition. Can you discuss what the latest research says?

21:16 For a coach who wants to give something out to their parents on nutrition, what resources do you recommend? 

23:12 What is the biggest mistake athletes are making with nutrition?

24:33 Often times you will have an athlete not making the gains they should be in racing and workouts, what do you do to break down what is going on?

26:53 Can you discuss role of iron?

28:45 What should the Ferritin levels be?

30:34 How is the coaching with Jessica Tonn going?

32:17 You have had several successful high school runners who went on to success in college and as a professional. When you have an athlete who you know has that potential, do you handle them differently? 

34:22 Sarah Hall had Tweet about running too much in high school, how do you feel about that?

36:38 You have an athlete coming in as a freshman who has a lot of potential, what is your progression over four years of high school. 



A recent article on sleep for runners 
Nancy Clark Nutrition Website
Email him at Jeff.Messer At



Jul 18, 2019

Welcome to episode 130 of the Final Surge Podcast where we welcome Jeff Taylor. Jeff has been coaching youth runners for close to 30 years and in the last year has launched a non-profit organization called Kids Love to Run. We talk about the organization and the challenges of getting youth engaged with distance running.

:55 How he got running in middle school with the 800m 

2:12 Was there an influence in your youth that got you to love to run as a youngster?

3:45 Where did the passion for coaching start?

5:39 It is one thing for a coach to say 'never again' but how did you get the kids to buy-in?

10:03 Sara Hall tweeted that kids can run a lot of miles in high school, what do you think about high miles?

12:27 How did your organization Kids Love To Run get started?

14:16 how big are your events?

15:08 How do you change things up for a 7-8-year-old runner to make it fun for them?

16:35 Are they all from your school or is it open to other schools?

17:04 Do you encourage the kids to do AAU/USATF meets?

17:54 How difficult is it to keep the attention of the younger kids?

18:54 Where do you see this going from here?

Kids Love To Run Website
Kids Love To Run Twitter
Kids Love To Run on Facebook


Jul 11, 2019

Episode 129: Today Stryd Power Meter employee Evan Schwartz joins us to talk about the new and updated Stryd Power Meter. The power meter is just one tool that many people are turning to for help in their training and racing. Today Evan joins us to talk about the new wind reading on the Stryd and other changes such as the automatic critical power reading. 

1:30 How did you end up in Boulder Colorado working for Stryd

4:15 What is your role at Stryd

5:45 Stryd Power Podcast

7:12 What is a power meter?

10:03 How does a little device on my shoe measure my effort?

11:57 How do external things such as wind effect power?

15:18 How is a pod on the foot sensing the wind?

19:12 If it is measuring my effort was wind something that needed to be measured?

23:18 DC Rainmaker has been a skeptic of power, but he put your device through the tunnel and it was amazing how accurate those wind numbers were. 

27:20 When will it be out?

28:24 Is the wind update the only update?

32:18 Are you finding any teams are adapting power?

39:01 You just released an update to critical power model, what is the new automatic critical power?

44:37 Who would need to do the power test vs. using the auto power results?

46:40 So it uses 3 months of data but you don't need 3 months?


Stryd on Facebook
Stryd on Instagram
Stryd on Twitter

Evan on Instagram 
Evan on Twitter 



Jul 5, 2019

Episode 128: Lawrence Avery did not start running until he was 30 years old. Almost a decade later he is running sub 2:30, has a successful coaching business and splits his time between his home UK and Kenya. We discuss what inspired him to get running, how an injury lead to his passion for coaching and what he has learned spending that time in Kenya.  

:40 Got into running much later, not until he was 30

3:10 When you decided you wanted to run a marathon, how did that training go?

4:35 Were the 5ks the only racing you did in your marathon build up?

5:03 How many people show up for free 5ks in the park?

6:18 So is the running scene really healthy in the UK?

7:50 How big of an impact has Mo had on the running scene?

8:25 Was there anything that drew you towards the sport to start competing?

9:10 When did you go to Kenya to train?

9:46 What have you learned from your time there?

12:03 You picture everyone in Kenya running, is it that way, or it is it the ones who do run just have a lot of success?

12:44 How has your coaching changes because of the Kenya experience?

13:26 So with the easy runs being so easy to do you just say effort of giving them a pace?

13:59 What distances do you coach?

15:42 In the UK is there an emphasis on BQ or do you focus more on European marathons?

16:25 What is your buildup plan like for the marathon?

18:12 Give us an example of a key workout you do during the 10-week marathon training

19:45 Where can they learn more about your coaching? 

20:15 Tell us about the contest you are running right now

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? -  British Marathon Legands of 1980's
Current trainers you are wearing? - Vapor Fly
Favorite race? - Night of the 10,000 PB's
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Smoothie with milk, oatmeal and peanut butter
Your favorite workout - Long marathon pace repeats



Coaching Website and blog 




Jun 27, 2019

This is a best of episode. Dr Jay Dicharry joined us to talk about running rewired. Are we born to run or is it a learned skill. Dr Dicharry talks about that and deliberate practice. 

Jun 20, 2019

Episode 127: Mark Hadley is a very successful marathon coach having coached several Olympic Trial qualifiers and over 100 Boston Qualifiers. He is also the father of Alana Hadley who was tearing up the roads as a high school runner. We talk about some of the common mistakes new marathon runners make, the five key tenants that distance runners should focus on and what you should be doing right now to get ready for that fall marathon. 

:15 How did you get started in running?

3:10 You said you ran road races before you ever got to high school, how young were you?

4:10 What attracted you to distance over sprints at that age?

5:15 Was there a coach that had a big impact on you?

8:10 You have had a lot of success as a coach, but you seem to focus mostly on the marathon, is that correct?

9:27 What are some of the key tenants of coaching you like to focus on?

17:40 How can you coach passion?

21:15 So let’s talk about someone who is getting ready for a fall marathon, we're almost getting to that time. If someone is racing say NYC in early nov, what should they be doing right now?

26:50 What is the biggest mistake that new marathon runners make?

29:10 What percentage of weekly mileage should the long run be?

31:06 Are your clients often those who tried the marathon before in the past and failed?

31:55 Is there a benchmark workout you like to implement into training to test progress?

33:30 How is your daughter Alana doing?

35:35 What advice do you as a father to someone who has a very young and talented runner?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute
Favorite endurance/running book? -  Daniels Running Formula
Current trainers you are wearing? -  Nike Pegasus
Favorite race? - NYC Marathon
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Chocolate Milk
Your favorite workout - Long Tempo Runs

RunDoyen Coaching Webpage
Mark on Twitter
Mark’s blog

Jun 6, 2019

Episode 126: In 2012 Bernie Montoya won the high school Dream Mile in a time of 4:01 and became the top recruit in the country. He decided to stay home and go to ASU. Whatever happened to Bernie? Well in college he was diagnosed with a heart condition and then had a series of injuries. Hope you enjoy this great story of overcoming adversity.

:50 There are going to be some that don’t follow the high school running scene too closely, you were the top recruit in America in 2013 and I want to get into the story of where you are now and what you have gone through. First take us back to when you were younger, back to when you were a football player and how you ended up in running

3:25 You ran your first race ever it was the Footlocker West Qualifier?

5:45 It is the summer right now and some kids are thinking about what they want to do their first year in high school What advice do you have for an HS freshman who is just starting their first summer of training?

7:22 When you were getting ready for your first track season did you push yourself to run with the better runners or did you hold back some?

8:39  Over your career what type of ancillary work or non-running work did you do that you would recommend to a serious high school runner?

10:00 Did you hit the weight room in high school?

10:43 Did you do many 2-a-day running sessions in high school?

12:06  All around the country there are kids getting ready to run their junior and senior years who are going to be aiming for that sub 4:10 mile or sub 4:50 mile for female. For that athlete that was a star like you, what advice do you have as far as getting finishing the career and the college decision-making process?

14:58 What was the most memorable or favorite race you had in high school?

16:40 One of the things that I always heard about you was how everyone liked you. You didn’t act like a star athlete that was different than anyone else, you respected your competitors and you were friends with them. Was this something you did consciously?

18:50 Let’s move to the next part of your career. You had to make a decision on where to go to college. Oregon, Colorado, all the big teams were recruiting you, how did you make your decision?

21:26  You get to college and you are an immediate impact for ASU, you have a lot of success as a freshman, how do you feel your freshman year went, how was the transition from high school to college?

22:55 Your whole story changes in 2015, talk about the heart condition

27:21 What was it like being forced to take that time off?

29:45 How hard was the comeback after six months off?

31:24 How long did it take to get back?

33:15 What is your best advice coming back from a long downtime?

35:19 What are you working on now?

36:50 What does the future hold for you in terms of running?

38:39 You can look back at your career with this time off, who can you point to that really helped you as an athlete and as a person?

40:48 I notice the passion you talk about your high school coach with, you think you will ever take that road?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Pre
Current trainers you are wearing? -  Adidas
Favorite race? - Twilight
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Pizza and a Coke
Your favorite workout - 12x400

Where can people follow you online?
Instagram 2_bernie

May 30, 2019

Episode 125: Polar has been a leader in heart rate technology for several decades now. One of the largest GPS watch brands on the market, we are pleased to announce we now import from Polar directly into Final Surge. Tom Fowler is the president of Polar, a former professional triathlete Tom discusses workouts with Mark Allen, a horrifying accident he had and we do talk about some new things Polar is doing like Power on the watch with no third device.

:55 Who is Tom Fowler, what was his business background before he started working with Polar as President

2:25 With all those athletic business connections, what is your athletic background?

4:31 You mentioned you raced against Mark Allen, what was it like in the 80’s racing on the triathlon circuit?

8:10 What was the most memorable sessions with Mark Allen?

13:00 Story about Scott and Allen competing in the pool on workout days

15:25 If they were doing it without technology, then do you really need technology?

19:49 Heart rate, distance, and pace, power. How much are you adding in power and what are your thoughts on it?

23:55 I saw Polar is tracking power to the watch itself with Vantage V, how does that work?

27:18 Have you taken the Stryd and Vantage on a run and compare the results?

29:50 What other metrics will your power measure?

31:20 What else does Polar have coming out?

34:17 How is heart rate accuracy between wrist and chest strap?

37:30 Great story about an injury that almost ended his athletic career


Polar On Facebook



Tom on Instagram


Polar Vantage V Video:

May 23, 2019

Episode 124: We welcome back Olympian Kim Conley to the Final Surge Podcast. Kim has had a rough time with injuries since she last joined us before her marathon debut. She is back on the track now and we discuss what her plans are for the 2020 Olympic year.

:40 Last time we had you on we were talking about you doing your first marathon. With the Olympics in 2020 just a year away, what are your plans?

1:55 What type of injuries did you go through?

2:20 How long will you be at altitude training?

2:32 What are you going to be focussing on in the immediate future?

3:09 In 2016 you went after both the 10k and the 5k, will that be the plan again?

4:04 You recently raced at Payton Jordan and I want to read an Instagram post you did right after the race.   “ I spent some time pulling the field along last night in the 5000m, but my indecisiveness to push the pace from the front also reminded me that I have additional elements to address as I rediscover my racing identity." What do you mean by this?

5:54 Do you think the reason was gameplan or because of the time you missed that you didn't finish like you wanted?

6:35 Are you making progress towards getting your competitive edge back?

7:17 How often are you getting up to altitude for training?

7:35 A lot of everyday runners go through injury issues too, what advice do you have to them for coming back from an injury?

8:55 How long did it feel like it took for your fitness to come back?

9:53 How hard is it mentally to come back and know you are not where you used to be?

10:52 Do you have a group you are training with?

11:17 What do you think of the new Olympic standards in place?

12:12 Has it changed your training at all?

13:00 What would you like to see as a selection process for the US?

14:25 How is your training changed coming back from injury?

15:06 What different rehab/prehab exercises are you doing?

15:25 Tell us about the new book about you called The Underdog

16:27 How involved in the process have you been?


Episode 28 with Kim Conley from 2016
Kim on Twitter
Kim on Instagram
Kim Website

May 14, 2019

Episode 123: Joey Berriatua is one of the up and coming young guns of the Tinman Elite Group. Joey has an interesting story. Joey is the son of a former baseball player who got a pretty late start in the track and field world. Joey has been an underdog since he started and has defied the odds to go on and become a member of one of the hottest teams around. We talk about his road to where he is today and what it is like being part of the Tinman group. 


:45 Story about impact of Tinman group and youth

1:45 How has the experience of being part of Tinman been?

3:25 How you got into running

6:07 Do you remember what your time was in 8th grade? Didn't break 5 until 11th grade

7:10 What was your progression like in cross country when you didn't run track in high school?

10:44 When you were a Junior and made the decision to quit baseball and run track how did your dad react to that?

13:04 How did the first year of track your junior year go?

13:54 What was your training like going into your junior track season?

15:05 When you went 4:23 as a junior did any colleges start showing interest?

17:20 What was the biggest change between running in high school and running in college?

18:45 Did you think of yourself as a cross country runner who did track to stay in shape or the other way around?

19:53 When you were at Santa Clara talk about your involvement in the basketball games

22:30 How did you end up making the connection to the Tinman team post-college?

 25:32 What event are you going to be focusing on?

26:25 Do you think Steeple is one of those events that gets neglected that kids could focus on and gain attention?

28:07 How hard was the hurdling part to learn for you?

29:00 When did you start with Tinman and how is the training going?

31:00 What has been the hardest part to adapt to since moving to Boulder and joining Tinman?

32:33 You are posting runs often on Instagram, how many guys are in the group now? 

34:25 What is something you have learned you can share with young high school runners to help them?

Final Surge round, 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? -  The Perfect Mile
Current trainers you are wearing? -   Addidas Solar Boost
Favorite race? – Steeple
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? – Oatmeal with peanut butter, banana and strawberries
Your favorite workout – Long Run

Joey on Twitter
Joey on Instagram


May 5, 2019

Episode 122: Jason Fitzgerald joins us again to talk about strength training, the differences between lifting for endurance and speed and the importance of the glutes. We also talk about how he would periodize a strength program.

1:02 Strength running podcast - We discuss his new podcast

1:47 Why strength training is not cross training. It is part of what we need to do.

3:25 Distance runners want to be light and fast, so what concerns are there with getting into the weight room.

6:05 When should a runner lift, workout day, recovery day or does it not matter?

8:00 If working out on your workout day do you recommend after or before your run?

9:28 What is the difference between lifting for endurance or lifting for speed?

11:18 I hear Meb talking about trap bar deadlift a lot, what are you incorporating as part of your weight routine?

13:55 How many days a week should endurance runners be hitting the weight room?

14:56 We tend to think of ourselves as runners instead of thinking of ourselves as athletes

16:56 Another thing you have been talking about recently is glute strength. A common thing we hear is ‘glutes not firing’ want to talk about how glutes play a big role in in our running form, mechanics, and injuries?

20:04 We are coming to the end of the spring marathon season, we have seen a great Boston race, London, and now it is time for many to start thinking about their fall marathons. I know you work with a lot of marathon runners, how much strength work do you have your marathon runners do?

23:06 When you coach a marathon runner where do you start with incorporating strength training?



Jason Fitzgerald on Episode 7
Video on lifting weights
Video on Glutes
Jason on Twitter
Jason on Instagram
Jason's Blog

Apr 25, 2019

Welcome to Episode 121 of the Final Surge podcast where we welcome veteran World Duathlon finalist Kerry Camberg to the program. Right after we recorded the podcast Kerry qualified again for the World Championship. Kerry was a late bloomer to endurance athletics and talks about how it is never too late to set big goals and chase them.


1:25 Unique story on how she got involved in running in high school after getting injured as a gymnast. 

2:41 After high school, took a lot of time off and didn't get back into athletics until several years later.

3:15 Got involved in triathlons, realized she was decent on run and bike, but not swim so moved to duathlons. 

4:05 Ran in college, but not until she was in her 40's. Qualified for Nationals in Cross. Finished 7th at nationals.

5:47 Many thought she was the coach because she was old enough to be the parent of her teammates. 

6:30 This all lead to duathlon, biking and running and Kerry explains the difference in events with duathlons.

7:30 We see all the time road races and triathlons, how often are there duathlons?

8:16 Kerry talks about participating in Nationals and then qualifying for Worlds and talks about what it was like qualifying for the World Championships. 

9:45 Making the move to duathlons and identifying what your strengths are and focusing on them. 

11:10 What does a typical training week look like for a duathlete? Run/bike mix and getting out for a run after a long bike ride. 

12:10 What is your milage mixture between running and biking?

12:40 How hard is it on your legs to go between biking to run. 

13:20 Using the Kicker to help train on the bike.

14:07 Give us an example of what a harder workout may look like.

14:38  What advice do you have for someone who may be getting started later in life like in their 40's? It is never too late to get involved and be competitive.

15:44 When someone decided they want to start getting competitive what advice do you have on setting goals. 

16:36 Frist triathlon was a mountain bike race, and she had no idea what a mountain bike was. All training had been on roads. 


Kerry on Twitter 
Kerry on Instagram 






Apr 12, 2019

Episode 120: Neely Spence Gracey has been on the podcast several times, but we have not caught up with her since she had her baby Athen's. In this episode, we talk about what it was like having to take so much time off, what the comeback process has been like and we talk about her future goals including the 2020 Olympics Marathon. 


1:00 What has been going on

  • Athen's born
  • Chases dog in the walker
  • Leaving for training runs hard

2:23 You ran for over a decade without time off, what was it like shutting it down

  • Been running from 8th grade
  • 15 years never had more than a couple weeks off
  • Ran for a while but got pain early on
  • Thought would run a lot longer
  • Went through an identity crisis
  • Decided to mentally take a downtime
  • Once accepted it was in a better place

6:47 When did you know it was time to start training again

  • 6-week post appointment asked OB if could go for a run and they said yes
  • Did 10x run one minute and walk one minute
  • Every other day for a month would increase it a little
  • Took a month before made a 4-mile run
  • Was no information out there on how to come back
  • Core was shot had to rebuild

10:32 You do a lot of core and strength exercises, how much did you focus on that

  • 6-week core program
  • Have a certain routine needed to do
  • Did it 4 days a week and each week was different

14:20 When you started running was there any separation issues or did you run with a stroller?

  • Husband ran with me pushing the stroller
  • Athen's was not happy being left with others
  • Early runs without him were difficult

18:54 Been back running seven months

  • Been long road back
  • Way behind expectations, been longer than thought it would be
  • Had taken 6 months off
  • Shin splints which never had before
  • Miles are behind where hoped to be
  • At 50-55 miles a week, half of normal
  • Cross training 3-5 hours a week

20:32 How did you work through the shin splints?

  • Weight was a little higher than normal
  • Not as efficient stride as used to
  • Ran on more roads and sidewalks
  • Calf muscles got really tight
  • A lot of stretching, dry needling, massages, cupping
  • Ice massages 
  • Once stopped flaring up so much added in strength work
  • Did a lot of hard workouts on the bike for a while

24:46 Do you have a target race plan?

  • No goal race yet
  • Starting to talk about it
  • Most likely will do a fall marathon
  • With new Olympic standards puts pressure on running a marathon

27:40 With new qualification standards do you choose races differently?

  • Need to go for a faster time on a fast course
  • Weather also plays a factor

28:53 What are your thoughts on Olympic Standards?

  • Disappointed how it will impact smaller countries 
  • Taking field from over 200 to about 80 is a big cut
  • It is an original Olympic event
  • Could have been a middle ground that wasn't so drastic
  • But they are the rules so we will live with it and control what we can

30:57 Where are you at with your training and workouts a week now?

  • Now doing 2 workouts and a long run a week
  • Been doing that for about 6 weeks now
  • 12x400 workout and then 6 weeks later was doing 20x400 faster at altitude  
  • Can see big improvements in progression runs

37:00 Boston Marathon is next week any predictions?

  • Excited about American Women
  • Many Boulder women I have been running with and they are ready

39:30 Are you still coaching?

  • Yes have 22 athletes running Boston next week
  • Added a coach to the team
  • Stayed connected to running while couldn't run
  • Work with some mother runners on the comeback



Runner's World Coming Back After Pregnancy 6-week program

Neely Coaching

Neely on Instagram

Neely on Twitter




Apr 4, 2019

Episode 119: Megan Ping joins us to talk about the summer camp the Ping family does with Coach Tom Tinman Schwartz over the summer called the Project Gold Running Camp. We discuss the camp, what the kids can expect and catch up with how Grace Ping did recently at the World Cross Country Championships U20 event.

:35 Background - Competetive runner in high school and college and then in marathons. Started running in 7th grade in Minnesota.

1:50 Chiropractor, do you work with mostly athletes?

2:49 How did the camp come about?

5:51 You mentioned this started out as a group of girls, is this still just girls or are there boys now too?

4:43 Are most of the kids from Minnesota? 

5:40 How big has it become?

6:00 How did Tom Schwartz get involved?

7:12 What can someone attending expect

8:55 On a typical day how much time is spent in a classroom learning

10:25 You talk a lot about meeting your goals, is there any sessions on setting goals?

13:28 Both your daughters Lauren and Grace will be there?

13:10 Grace just ran World Cross how did that go?

14:22 Is this camp mostly for elite high school runners?

16:25 One part you stress is nutrition and sleep, can you talk about how important that is?

18:55 - More info
Project Gold Running Facebook

Mar 28, 2019

Episode 118: Jessica Tonn has been one of the top 10k runners in the country over the last few years. Today she joins me to discuss her move back to her home Phoenix area and we discuss her changing coaches. Jess has struggled with injuries off and on and we talk about how she is now doing more sustained volume than ever and staying healthy doing so.

:35 Moving back to Phoenix

  • Where I need to be
  • Moving back home
  • Permanent

2:15 Cross Season

  • Was injured in June after 10k Champs
  • Getting healthy and enjoying to run again
  • Working with new coach

4:22 New Coach

  • Jeff Messer
  • Known since 7th grade

6:55 Stories from the past

  • Painted high school coaches van after a bet

8:52 More on new coach

  • Speaker at many national and regional conferences
  • Remains a student of the sport
  • One of top unknown coaches in the country

9:45 Focus of the training right now

  • Was broken after US 10Ks
  • Needed someone who knew and trusted in me
  • Healthy
  • Goal is 10k this year and get to starting lines healthy
  • ASU Sun Angle 1500 and Payton Jordan 10k

13:13 Now coaching at ASU

  • Grew up ASU fan
  • Wanted to give back to Arizona running community
  • Will work out with girls at times

16:39 Still coaching at Run Doyan

18:50 Lower leg injuries doing the little things, how have things changed

  • Had lost sight of doing the little things
  • Self-care, Maximum Mobility with John Ball
  • Sleep, eat, strength work

21:25 1500 and 10k, what races do you have picked out

  • 10k at USA in late July is the goal
  • Payton Jordan

22:55 What do you think of the Diamond League decision to scrap 5k

  • Disappointing
  • With IAAF standards we just need to train harder to get the times

25:12 What are the biggest changes you have noticed in coaching

  • Workouts different - Messer have less key performance indicator workouts
  • Always finishing hard workouts feeling like could do another rep
  • Running more miles now, but the intensity is backed off overall

30:19 Example of workout

  • K's then 800's which got faster. Then 600s that got a lot faster. Then 6x200 with a total of 13 miles.

32:24 Coming back from injuries, how important is the nutrition aspect


Coaching at Run Doyan
Eating Blog
Jess Tonn on Twitter
Jess Tonn on Instagram


Mar 22, 2019

Episode 117: Ben Rosario joins us to talk about the recent changes in track and field. We discuss what it may mean for the Diamond League meets to drop the 5k and how the IAAF changing the Olympic qualifications standards will impact the USA and other countries.

1:25 Diamond League dropped the 5k, why do you think they dropped it

  • TV
  • Live experience for fans
  • Shorten meets
  • Cutting to 90 minutes

2:42 Do you agree with the change?

  • Willing to watch meets and see what it is like
  • Can still see them in the 3k
  • Has been 3k/5k so mix of both
  • Can still host them, just not part of Diamond League points

4:15 Hard to imagine not having that historic race anymore

  • The counter-argument is could be more exciting 3k than 5k
  • 3k usually has more people involved in the finish
  • We will still see 5k races in other meets, DL not the only meets
  • Chance for distance industry to get creative

6:30 You don't think this a move to eliminate the long-distance races off the track?

  • Think it is more about TV
  • Could see 10k maybe being eliminated but may be replaced with a road race

8:30 5k is so relatable to people who do it on the weekend

  • Relatability is even more road racing
  • The casual fan doesn't run on track after high school
  • Road and track are almost completely different sports

10:10 IAAF changed qualifying standards for Olympics

  • Biggest change is a 2 tier system Time Standard and Rankings
  • New times are harder to achieve
  • Rankings system accrue points based on races through year
  • Some races are ranked higher and get more points
  • Better geographic representation into the Olympics with region points

13:20 Top 3 American not necessarily going to the Olympics under the system

  • For international athletes, this system may be better
  • Consistent and run and gain points can give you another way in
  • The biggest problem is we found out way too late
  • Problem is with the US, puts us in a bind
  • USATF is struggling with what to do with Trials now
  • US still have not decided how to name their team

18:15 Problems with how this will work with Marathon

  • If come in 4th and person in 3rd were to beat them but don't have the auto standard, a person getting 4th could not feel good about being named
  • USATF has to figure out what their system will be now

  21:35 Gave exceptions for World Major but not for US Marathon Trial?

  • They made national championships one thing and weighed area championships higher
  • From US point of view may not make sense, but for the outside US may make sense

24:15 Could the focus on World Majors backfire on athletes with appearance fees?

  • Don't think the people who make those decisions would do that

25:09 What else is going on with NAZ Elite

NAZ Website
NAZ Training Plans
Ben on Twitter



Mar 14, 2019

Mark Allen was our guest as we discussed his career highlights and his coaching that he is now excelling at. 

Mar 7, 2019

Laura Norris is a running coach and a running blogger. Laura is always putting out great content on her website This Runner's Recipes. 

:49 Where did your love for blogging start?

3:33 How many posts have you put out in the last five years?

3:54 Did you do any sports in high school?

4:45 How did you make the transition into running in college?

6:02 Do you remember when you decided to do that first race?

7:15 You have qualified for Boston a few times correct?

8:35 How did you break your foot?

9:55 When you started running and qualifying for Boston were you always self-coached?

11:00 Which coahing certification did you get?

11:48 When did you make the transition into coaching other athletes?

12:46 What is the avatar of what your client looks like?

14:04 You write a lot about women's issues, what issues do women runners need to be aware of?

16:09 What are some examples of the hip strength and mobility 

17:20 How often are you recommending strength training

18:08 Are the athletes you work with in person or on the internet?

18:50 Do you give set paces or how do you prescribe effort level?

20:17 What events do you coach?

Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Run Faster and Roar
Current trainers you are wearing? - Saucony Freedom and Kinvara
Favorite race? - CIM
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Oatmeal with peanut butter and fruit
Your favorite workout - 2-mile repeats


Twitter @thisrunrecipes
Instagram @thisrunnersrecipes

Feb 28, 2019

E-Sports is taking off around the globe, and one of the big players in the physical game aspect is CVRcade. Many cyclists can now make more money riding in E-Sport tournaments than they can on the roads. In this episode talk to Frank Garcia and find out what exactly the experience is like.


:45 What exactly is E-Sports

1:20 What exactly is CVRcade?

1:58 What is your background as a cyclist?

2:44 What was it that made you think cycling e-sports had a future?

3:53 What equipment does someone need to get started?

4:47 If you are physically on a bike how does a controller play into the game?

5:10 So what does this look like when you are on a bike, is there a screen in front of you?

5:42 So is this a situation where I am playing against a computer or am I playing against other people I join?

6:20 If racing against other people do I set this up with friends before or just find a group?

6:53 Are these well-known courses you race on or are they general computer generated courses?

7:33 You can build off-road courses as well as on road?

8:40 Can you tell me how this would work if I was on a bike on a mountain bike course with the keyboard?

11:08 What is the experience like if I fall, how do I experience that on the trainer?

12:32 What if I am riding in a group and someone next to me comes into me, what happens to me?

13:47 Tell us about your tournaments you have

14:39 How many people are in the big tournaments?

14:52 How do you qualify for the tournaments?

15:32 How do the 8-week league works to qualify for the tournaments?

16:55 Where do the broadcasts happen?

17:15 You said $100k up for grabs? That is real money.

18:53 Are you finding with these large purses you are getting some professional road athletes into these tournaments?

20:08 When is the next big tournament at?


CVRcade Website
CVCcade on Facebook
CVRcade on Instagram
CVRcade on Twitter

Feb 21, 2019

We are now almost eight weeks through the new year. Where are you with your goals and New Year resolutions? Coach Denny Krahe of Diz Runs Podcast recently asked his Facebook group that question. We talk about what they said what you can do now to get back on track if you are off track.


:50 We catch up on Diz's podcast Diz Runs where he is almost at 700 episodes. He has been consistent for years now.

2:04 You posted an interesting column on goals. We are nearly two months into the year, do you find most of the runners you coach set new year's goals? - Many do, many are working on goal races already coming into the new year. Many will have new years resolution goals on top of their next race goal.

3:55 All of us who belong to a gym see how the attendance has already died off for this year. You asked your Facebook group how their goals were coming, what was the answer? - We asked for feedback a week ago where people are at. Some people are on track, some are behind, some are just a little behind because of the polar vortex which devastated much of the country the last month.  

5:55 What were the reasons people were behind? - Some were weather, some were little injuries and was surprised by the number of people who forgot what goals they had set seven weeks ago. How can you be successful if you forget what your goals even are?

7:24 Is this a reminder of you as a coach that you need to find ways to keep their goals in front of them better? - Yes some find a way to find a metric and measure it so they can keep it in front of them. One athlete created a wallpaper on phone with goals to remind her of what they are. 

9:59 You have an athlete that forgot about their goals, what advice do you have for them going forward? - Depends on how big of a hole they have dug for themselves. Need to decide if still attainable. Do you need to tweak the goal, you don't need to be married to it. 

15:40 Do you like your clients to use big hairy audacious goals or do you like smaller more achievable goals? - I like a mixture of both. I love big goals, but you need wins along the way. You are not going to knock off 1:20 off your marathon time to qualify for Boston, but if you set that as your goal and set goals along the way. 

17:54 How often do you work with your clients on breaking those goals down from a long term year go to month to week to what you need to be doing today? - Specificity is good, but not every day will be a win. We want to look at trend lines over a longer period of time moving things forward.

20:56 Someone is out on their run right now, and they realize they have forgot about their goals. They go ahead and look at them and evaluate, what advice do you have to stick with it this time? - Get a sticky note and put them where you can see them. Always be reminded of what those goals are. Put things in place that make it easier to get things done.


Diz article on goals
DizRuns on Twitter



Feb 15, 2019

Lisa Pozzoni is not out to coach elite-level runners, Lisa loves coaching new runners and helping them find join in running and finishing things they may have thought were impossible. 


:40 How is your typical coaching client different

2:01 How did you get started in running?

3:06 How did you get introduced to Chi Running?

4:55 You say you coach back of the pack runners, paint us an avatar of your typical clients

6:15 You have very active on Instagram and many of your photos are of groups and people having fun, how does that play a role?

7:23 Most of the runners you coach are new runners?

7:55 Most new runners don't think they need a coach

9:40 You do a lot of 'group selfies' so how often are your client's people you meet in person vs online coaching?

10:25 How are you using Final Surge?

11:25 In what way are these new runners usually finding you?

12:14 With a new runner what are your first steps in working with them?

13:31 What do your training programs look like?

14:23 Are you doing a large amount of ultra training as part of your coaching business?

15:38 How was the transition for you moving up to ultra distances?

16:46 What is the 212k Challenge?

18:03 How often do you work with them in person?

18:24 What advice do you have for a newer runner if they are wondering if they need a coach or not?

19:21 What advice do you have for people who may be back of pack runners with not getting discouraged?

21:20 Free e-book gift for new runners


Final Surge 5 questions in under a minute

Favorite endurance/running book? - Born to Run
Current trainers you are wearing? - Altra
Favorite race? - Monument Valley 50k
Favorite recovery meal or recovery drink? - Craft Beer
Your favorite workout - Long runs on trail



Feb 8, 2019

Meg Mackenzie is an elite trail runner and all-around mountain athlete. She has spent the better part of the last 5 years racing around the world. She is passionate about the psychological side of training and racing and has used her own experience to guide her unique approach to coaching athletes.

James Montgomery is a passionate runner and all-around movement geek. He is passionate about endurance sport, athletic programming and strength, and conditioning. He has spent the better part of the last 15 years running and biking on the trails around Cape Town and has learned through trial and error how to build an athletic base, minimize injury risk and maximize athletic potential.


1:00 Background of Meg and James both from South Africa

2:37 How did you get started with coaching and The Running Project?

5:42 What is your general coaching philosophy?

8:35 Where do you start to determine if they psychological help in their training?

11:28 If someone is fit and ready to go, but does not have the race they wanted. Is there a general reason you find that people may not have the success in a race they wanted?

13:06 Besides the workout itself, what do you ask your clients to log in Final Surge?

14:20 You mentioned too much time in the gray zone. Are you talking about the 80/20 training philosophy? 

16:32 Are you training by paces or train by feel?

18:20 Differences between programming and coaching?

20:28 What ways do you work with movement and becoming a better athlete?

23:57 What was your movement exercise routine like today?

26:00 Was strength exercises the biggest difference to get you out of your injury rut?


Run Project on Instagram
Meg on Instagram
James on Instagram 





Jan 24, 2019

2018 was a very successful year for NAZ Elite athlete Scott Fauble. A seventh-place finish at the New York City Marathon and second American. He also wrote a book with his coach Ben Rosario called Inside The Marathon, which some are hailing as one of the best running books of all time.  Scott and Ben were in my the Phoenix Metro area recently for a book signing event which allowed me to sit down with them in person to talk to them about the book and what is next.


:45 NYC Results: 7th and introducing the book Inside The Marathon - When started writing it and what is in. The book is unique because it was written as the went not after

2:49 Interesting because it was written as you went along and not trying to use memory to recall. When you went back through it was there an ah-ha moment where you learned something maybe you didn't realize at the time?

5:14 Ben what were your thoughts when he came to you with the idea of the book?

6:32 When he was writing it did you see it day-to-day or only at the end?

8:14 It gives the average runner reading this insight on when you need to scrap workouts.

9:08 What was your daily process like recording this on paper?

11:00 This is like a very detailed running log, did you get more out of it than a normal running log you keep?

11:54 Ben did you learn anything about Scott that maybe you didn't realize before?

14:02 How can runners learn from how you structure races before your main race by reading the book?

15:57 Were the anxiety issues about performing for the race?

18:23 Do you feel you put extra pressure on yourself by writing a book?

19:15 You ended up 4 seconds behind Jared Ward, didn't you do some runs together before?

20:27 Ben what is next coming up next for NAZ Elite in far as marathons?

21:26 Will there be another book for when Scott runs Boston?

22:00 Did you self-publish this book?

22:55 What were the biggest struggles in self-publishing?

24:05 Scott what is your goal for Boston?

24:30 You have an internet feud with teammate Scott Smith, now that you beat him, is he now 'slow Scott'?

25:12 If you could have one last burrito where would you get it


Book Inside A Marathon
Scott Fauble Website
Scott on Twitter
Scott on Instagram
Scott's Final Surge Running Log
NAZ Elite Website
NAZ Elite on Twitter
NAZ Elite on Instagram
Inside A Marathon on Twitter
Inside A Marathon on Instagram
NAZ Elite Boston Marathon Training Plans





Jan 16, 2019

Boston is only 13 weeks away. How would you like to learn about running Boston from Meb, Greg McMillian and others for free? This week we talk to coach Greg McMillian about a series of 8 free webinars you can sign up for and learn from the best and most experienced people on Boston. You will learn how to run Boston, learn proper marathon nutrition and be ready on race day.  

1:00 Guest back on episode 35. Can you give an intro what McMillan running does

2:38 What are the biggest differences coaching elite Olympic quality athletes and age group runners?

3:57 We are 13 weeks out from Boston, what do you have planned for Boston?

5:30 Your webinars for Boston are free?

6:00 Where to sign up?

6:15 How many webinars will there be before Boston?

6:33 Are webinars training plans?

7:40 How do you prepare people for the weather variations?

8:58 What makes Boston unique for running?

10:32 Is running in a crowd in Boston be a thing or does it hurt you?

11:53 Boston is unique with hills, how do you get someone from Florida in a flat area prepared?

13:09 What is Meb’s involvement in your Boston webinar?

14:23 Will there be an opportunity to ask questions?

15:10 How will the 8 be spaced out?

15:50 Is there value in this free webinar for people who run marathons but not Boston?

16:48 What will be covered in the nutrition segments

17:28 You say your Boston plans have been updated, what is new?

18:45 When is the first webinar?

19:05 You can listen to webinars later if missed them


McMillan Boston webinars
Boston Training Plans
Greg on episode 35
Greg’s Book You (Only Faster)
Greg on Twitter

Jan 10, 2019

Brad Hudson has had many phases to his successful coaching career. In today's episode, we talk to Brad about what he and his star athlete Allie Kieffer are up to in the desert of Arizona. If you have not seen our latest announcement on social media, Final Surge now has Garmin Connect IQ support. Head over to for more details.

Topics covered:

:40 Coaching change and moving to Phoenix Arizona area

2:22 Why did you want to move to sea level

3:32 Wouldn't live at altitude and train at sea level be the best?

5:18 Why Phoenix?

8:30 Altitude training

9:10 What is your history with Allie and you coaching her?

11:06 How does the relationship work when developing training?

13:05 What are you changing with training and why?

15:14 When you say more speed work, most may thing track work, but you are talking more about 10k work?

17:02 10-day schedule rundown

17:54 Example of a workout 2-months out 

19:55 Are you still selling your Blackbook of workouts?

20:15 What is next for Allie?

20:32 Going into the next Olympic cycle where do you see her competing?

21:12 Is there another marathon on the schedule?    

Brad Hudson FS Podcast Episode 2
Brad's Black Book of Workouts
Brad and Allie Dreamwork Youtube series 

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